Introduction

Patrick: [00:00:46] My guest this week is unique. As you'll hear early and often he is programmed to go his own way to, as he says, go one way when everyone else is going another. His name is Dhani Jones. A name I knew as a Notre Dame football fan because he won a championship with our arch rivals, the university of Michigan in the late 1990s. Dhani went on to a long and successful career in the NFL, but even more interesting are his many pursuits in business and investing outside of football. Like my conversation with Tim Urban, I'll remember this conversation as a reminder to use a first principles mindset. Dhani seems to have this fresh mindset baked into his character. And as you'll hear, it has led to many a great adventure. Please enjoy my conversation with athlete, businessman, investor, philanthropist, movie buff, and bow tie wearer, Dhani Jones.

Thoughts on Hard Work

Let's start with the concept of hard work, or just how you think about how hard you are working. You've got one of the most interesting histories and combination of experiences of anyone that's been on this. Maybe you could, I don't normally do introductions, but given the range of things that you've done, you could start by giving a brief kind of history or outline of some of the things you've done and we'll dive into each.

Dhani: [00:01:53] Well, that's the thing, I'm trying to streamline all those different things. So when I introduce myself, people might think, "Oh man, he's doing a lot." But I guess in my mind, it's not. In my mind, it's sort of this beautiful equation of both sports as well as investing as well as relationship building as well as just having a good time and living sort of a synchronistic lifestyle. And so sometimes when I sort of expose all that, people just say to themselves, yeah, yeah. It looks like a haberdashery in the middle of Marrakesh. And I can't figure out exactly what I want.

I guess I'm giving away the punchline, but it's intentional. And I think at the same time, it's not, because I think there's some very real moments in life where you just have to sort of identify the breeze and move towards it because it's something that's coming and you want to be the first one. I think everybody in the investing world always wants to be the first one, but no one in the investing world wants to take a chance. Right. It's kind of, right.

Patrick: [00:02:56] Very well put.

Dhani: [00:02:57] It's like, "Oh, I want to be the first one. I'll be the first one. I don't know. What's really going on. I don't want to be the first."

Patrick: [00:03:04] Everyone wants all the return and none of the risks, is the way I'm putting.

Dhani: [00:03:06] Exactly. So I played in the National Football League for 11 years, and I have to say first, I went to the greatest university in the world, University of Michigan.

Patrick: [00:03:15] Second greatest.

Dhani: [00:03:16] It's actually the greatest. 1817, we have presidents, we have CEOs, we have chair persons. I mean, we own everything, basically. I know a lot of people love Buffett. I love Buffett too, but Munger it's Michigan, just like … I've just given you some … the dynamic is pretty amazing. So I'm quite bullish on my university. And I went to University of Michigan. Both my parents went to the University of Michigan. I played football there, and it was an amazing experience. Won the national championship 1997. And everybody's going to be like, "Oh yeah, '97. That was Tom Brady." Yeah. Tom Brady was there. He was on the team. And Griese was the quarterback, just to let you know. And Tom hadn't come into his own. And it's really amazing to see him do so well in all the different championships. I mean, do so well is kind of an understatement.

Patrick: [00:04:07] Yeah. He might be the greatest of all time.

Dhani: [00:04:10] The greatest quarterback of all time. And I think that it's also the greatest team of all time. And he also has the greatest coach of all time, and the greatest organization of all time. Let's not forget that it's the cumulative effort of all the people on the field, the coach, as well as the ownership and being able to select the next people, but also be able to select the next play. And that contributes just as much to Brady's legacy as he does to his own hard work. So playing on Michigan, Charles Woodson one of the greatest cornerbacks of all time.

Patrick: [00:04:43] That was the Heisman season, right?

Dhani: [00:04:44] The Heisman season. I mean, everybody remembers the catch that he made on Michigan stadium on the sideline. I remember it because I was watching him. I mean, I was on the field. I was like, I see the ball. I was like, "Oh, that ball is high. I think he's going to jump and get it. He's jumping. There's no way he can catch that. He's going up. There's no way he can catch that. He's still going up. And the ball still higher." And he caught the ball. And I'm sitting there on the field saying to myself, "What? He just caught that ball. And I've never seen that before." This is pre Odell Beckham. Everybody loves Odell's catch in the end zone. Woodson was doing this back in the day, right. Deion was doing it back in the day. It's just now that we kind of leverage ourselves through social media, everything is a little bit more escalated, but those guys really had a knack for hard work.

So then going from the National Football League into, no, going from Michigan to the National Football League for 11 years, New York for four years, which was an amazing experience, Philadelphia for three, which I learned a lot and ended up in Cincinnati Bangles where I played for four years and ended up staying there. And I did a bunch of TV in the meantime, Dhani Tackles The Globe. I'm doing some TV now, AdVenture Capitalists. And then I also have my investment firm, Key Capital and we're having a great time. We just stood up an accelerator this past year in Cincinnati called Hillmann. And we're just plugging away.

Patrick: [00:06:06] I'll go through each kind of one of those phases. I like the haberdashery. That's a great visual for all the listeners.

Dhani: [00:06:11] I love the haberdashery. There's some beautiful nuggets in there. It's like barn finder. I mean, everybody loves a good car, but they want to go to the auction where it's already put together. What about the person that bought the car for like five grand because it was a burn-fined? And they put a little bit of hard work into it. And then all of a sudden you buy it for $160,000 or that same car is now worth like $500,000.

Dhani's Time in the NFL

Patrick: [00:06:34] Let's start with football and how you changed the most through that 11 year process, across three teams, maybe even the state of the league itself. You could talk about the state of the league itself today. In what ways did you grow or change the most across those 11 seasons?

Dhani: [00:06:49] Well, number one I grew in age. I think that's one of the most important things.

Patrick: [00:06:55] Bummer.

Dhani: [00:06:56] I got older. It was like my hair was so nice. And then it became grayer as time went on. So when I joined the Giants, I had just come from the University of Michigan. And going from Michigan and the stadium where there's 115,000 people into Giant stadium, it's a lot less people. So the experience itself is manageable. The scrutiny, if you will, and the public entry, that is where it's a new ballgame. And when I first walked into the locker room, when I met Michael Strahan, I gravitated right towards him. Not only because he's one of the greatest defensive players of all time, but also because he was the captain, he was the leader.

And my parents always taught me, you want to go find the person. You always want to go find whether it's the man, the woman in the room that you can learn from. And I went up to him and I started talking to him and then he was like, shooed me away. He was like, "Go on now, get out of here. Get out of here." You can imagine I'm just like scrawny little kid that's coming from Michigan. And yeah, I was scrawny.

Patrick: [00:08:08] Scrawny is a relative term here.

Dhani: [00:08:09] I was scrawny. I was a smaller guy. And I kept bothering him, kept bothering him. And he was like, "What, what, what?" And I was like, "I just want to spend some time." And was like, "Fine, whatever." And he said, "Look, there's a couple of things you needed to know about in New York. Say, please, say thank you and smile, and people will remember you." And I just kept that in mind. And I just followed his lead. I watched how he interviewed and I interviewed the same type of way. I watched how people gravitate towards him, and maybe people would gravitate towards me. I asked and at the same time I listened to the questions that were coming from him and from other people. And I just learned from him.

And I think that when I was in New York, it was a period of time where I had yet matured to understand the power of the NFL. And I think a lot of guys, when they get into the National Football League, the first thing they're thinking about is like, I got to keep my job. I just came from school. I just come into the league. I just came into it with a nice little check. I got to make sure that I plant my roots and really establish who I am. And that's all I was really focused on. The problem was I got hurt. I got hurt in my first play of training camp. I didn't even get hit by anybody. It was poor form on my part. And a cut that I made, and I tore my ACL.

Patrick: [00:09:32] Oh my God.

Dhani: [00:09:32] And so I'm the guy that just got drafted in the sixth round, 177th pick going to the Giants first play, and I have a torn ACL. Now, what do you think the likelihood of me playing any longer was?

Patrick: [00:09:46] Tiny.

Dhani: [00:09:46] Tiny. So that was sort of the beginning of my career in the National Football League.

Patrick: [00:09:53] What an interesting story. I can't believe that you tore your ACL on the first play. How long did it take to recover from that, and how were you able to work your way back into it? Because I'm sure if there's a data pool of people that that's happened to, very few had an 11 year career.

Dhani: [00:10:07] Yeah. It took me a long time, like anybody else takes to do a surgery, but I had a great surgeon, Russ Warren, hospital for special surgery. I mean, if you've had an injury and you know anybody, you know that that's the guy to go to, so you trust the Giants. I trusted the Tisch family, I trusted the Mara family, and I trusted the organization to make the right choice for me. And so I got it taken care of, and it took a shorter amount of time than probably it would've had it not been for my good friend, Kunta Littlejohn who said, you spend less time whining and complaining about what just happened and more time working through it and getting better and recovering and getting back on the field and believing in yourself.

I think the power of the mind is incredible regardless of whatever industry you're in. And I know a lot of people love watching TV shows and it's always the psychologist that provides sort of that little, that nuance of information about the mind, because you can truly accomplish anything. And I think when Kunta told me that statement, I got better. And every day after that, I just became a better football player because I was more than anything, I was healing my body. But when you start playing at that level and you just trust the doctors and the therapists that around you, it's more about your mentality because there's a lot of people that have played, they've gotten hurt. They never come back because they're still worried about how they got hurt.

Patrick: [00:11:36] Talk a little bit about your most memorable experience, let's say, in the NFL, because I'm sure winning a national championship at Michigan might rank up there in terms of memorable football experiences.

Dhani: [00:11:45] 1997 National Championship, University of Michigan.

Patrick: [00:11:49] So I'll hold it just at the NFL, most memorable experience, individual experience while playing.

Dhani: [00:11:55] Other individual experiences, there were so many, I would say that going to the Super Bowl when I was on the Eagles. I would say going to the Super Bowl because we didn't play very well. It was a close game though. If we would have played better, we would have won. So naturally we didn't play very well. And that was actually the Patriots too. And they won the Super Bowl. So going there was a phenomenal experience. And anybody that says that the Super Bowl is not one of the greatest times of your life is lying to you.

Being down in Jacksonville, I remember they didn't have enough hotels. That was back in the day. And then they brought in cruise ships for people to sleep on. I mean, I remember all this kind of stuff. It was like, "Oh, we don't have enough hotels down here. We're going to bring some cruise ships in, and people are going to be sleeping on these boats. And then we're going to have this game." And we just had normal practices, but we also had a team where they had the Freddie Mitchell show, you had the Terrell Owens show. You had the Donovan McNabb show, and the Jeremiah Trotter show. There's a lot of things that were going on on that team. And so that added to sort of the essence of that season.

Patrick: [00:13:10] Talk about the transition. I was very excited to talk about this particular thing with you, the transition from the NFL to the business and investing world. So literally, how did it happen? Like what was your first step out of the league and into kind of the second chapter?

Dhani: [00:13:25] I think that that transition actually happened while I was playing. So Kunta, he told me spend less time worrying about knee and worrying, get yourself better. He's the same guy that told me, if you want to be somebody, you got to rock a bow tie. And most people look at me the same way when I talk about bow ties, at least before. Now, it's more prevalent. I mean, people are rocking bow ties all over the place, NFL, NBA, people in the financial industry, people in the entertainment space, bow ties are just like the cool thing to do. I mean, I'm telling you this is before it was cool. It was before when people thought it was just like fruit of Islam or nation of Islam, if you will, or Pee Wee Herman or Kentucky Fried Chicken, so I don't know. There's so many other things that people disassociate with bow ties.

But Kunta said if you want to beat somebody, you got to rock a bow tie. And I kind of looked at him and I was like, okay. And I got hurt. And I went to go see him when I was in Philadelphia. We were playing a game. And when you are on IR with a team, you don't necessarily get to travel with them. You don't necessarily get to stand on the sideline, but I wanted to go to the game because that's where my buddy was. So I went to go see him. And I met up with him, and my friend, he's like 350 pounds. And when I saw him, he was like 120 pounds. And this wasn't like an Atkins diet. This wasn't like a whole foods diet. This wasn't something that he wanted to happen. He had cancer. And when I found that he had cancer, I immediately realized that his statement for me to get better, I need to be able to support him in his journey as well.

So I went to go put on a bow tie. I bought one up at the Garden State Plaza, bought a bow tie. And I just started talking about bow ties, and then eventually started to sort of develop this relationship with people, companies and corporations, where I would therefore create bow ties for them. And that's what became BowTie Cause. So that's how sort of the entrepreneurial bug started to take shape. And at the same time, there was sort of this notion of television and media that started to come in. Remember, I was talking about Michael Strahan and his journey. So I did a bunch of interviews. Then the NFL Network started to come out. And then NFL Network, when it first started, they were begging people to work for them. They were like, "Come work for us. Come do interviews for us." Players are like, "We don't even know who you are. We know about ESPN, Fox, CBS, NBC. Who is NFL Network?" "We're the NFL."

And where most people don't go, I usually go. So I was like, "Cool, I'll do it." And so I did some interviews. And there's this clip of me interviewing Ray Lewis when they lost the game. And I got him to laugh and everybody was like, "Wow, you can make someone laugh when they're sort of lost the playoffs and are not going to go to the super bowl. Maybe you're already at this." So I started doing more stuff with the NFL Network. And that NFL Network became ESPN. I did a show called Timeless. And then I did Dhani Tackles the Globe. And then Dhani Tackles the Globe moved into some other network television that I was doing. And then now I'm doing a show called AdVenture Capitalist.

So those two things, whether it's TV or business kind of met at this healthy intersection, where now I spend time on the investing world where BowTie Cause is more oriented towards philanthropy, but I've also started some other companies. And one of which I sold, which is a creative agency, and one of which I'm still participating, which is another creative agency. And then spending time on bow ties, which is more philanthropically oriented, and then investing, and then television, which is a supplement of the two. So it's been a great transition.

And I think I'm still right in the middle of it. It's still challenging, and I'm still learning. And it's still coming together, but spending time with you, learning from Brent Beshore, over at Adventur.es, learning from so many people that are in the industry that I'm just trying to take notes from. Because when I'm on the field or when I was on the field for those 11 years, we weren't necessarily talking about sort of the venture world or the private equity world, the hedge fund market, or the quant world. These were not necessarily foreign, but they weren't high-

Patrick: [00:17:55] Not top of mind.

Dhani: [00:17:55] Not top of mind. It was more like, man, what'd you do last night? It was like, what'd you get into? Ah, no, I was kicking it. I was kicking it. I was like, okay, cool. And then it was, "Okay, what are we going to do in this game?" And then after the game it was like, "Man, you got taken out." It's like, "Oh, that was a great catch. Or that was a great pass." And yeah, it was more conversations that oriented in that fashion than anything else.

The Power of Storytelling

Patrick: [00:18:20] So talk a bit about the bow tie, how it actually works. So you mentioned Brent Beshore, who's the person that introduced us. Everyone listening will know a bit about Brent. We've done a lot together on this. Talk about how you two connected as maybe an example of what the bow tie thing does.

Dhani: [00:18:36] So Brett and I connected at Summit. And for those of you who don't know Summit, Summit is one of, in my opinion, one of the best organizations that's out there. And they started it as a small group and in 2007 timeframe. And I met them in 2010. And coincidentally, that was right around sort of the tail end of my career or when I was starting to ask some questions about transition. And I went to go to DC 10 at Summit, I looked around, I was like, "Man, there are some great people here." I mean, I met everybody from the Robin Hood Foundation to business leaders to I think President Clinton was there. He was talking. And I was sitting here talking to people and I'm like, wow. I was like, "Where have these people been my entire life?"

And so I started become more and more curious. And so I started attending more and more events. I started to meet more and more people. And I had a chance to meet Brent on top of the mountain, and we were just hanging out and he's from Joplin. And we started talking about my organization, BowTie Cause. And he said, "You know what, maybe we should make a bow tie for those that have been affected by the tornado that came through Joplin, Missouri." And I was like, "That's a great idea." And BowTie Cause basically engages with nonprofit organizations, companies, corporations, and really helps them tell their story. And in the same way that I was able to help tell my friend's story, Kunta Littlejohn and his bout through non-Hodgkin's lymphoma, I'm able to tell Brent's story and the city's story through their battle through the tornado. And we help raise money.

And we've worked with over 200 different nonprofits companies and corporations in doing that. Elizabeth Glaser pediatric AIDS foundation, Juvenile Diabetes Research foundation, kind of go down the line, Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. So there's a lot of people that we help tell their story through the illustrations that we make on the bow tie. And it's really about those that are rocking bow ties, or now we're also making scarves. That say, "Hey, what's up with that bow tie? What's up with that scarf?" Because most of the time when we're out in the industry, in the world or walking down the street, we're not really wearing anything that means anything. We're wearing something that is taking care of something, right.

We're cold. So we put on a sweater in order to make us warm or hot. So we put on a T-shirt to make us cooler, right. But we're not wearing something that really kind of speaks to that activism in some way, shape or form, because we're really trying to, functionality is more important and that we're just trying to get to work. But if you rock the bow tie, and then people are like, "Wow, you have the audacity to wear that bow tie?" I remember one time when I was in New York, no, New York was one story, but I was also in DC, and it was new year's. And one of my friends was wearing a bow tie. So we're in this bar, it's like two o'clock in the morning, out way past our bedtime. And nothing happens good after two o'clock right. We all know that.

Patrick: [00:21:52] My rule is midnight.

Dhani: [00:21:54] So we're out. And this girl comes up to my friend, and she's like, "What's up with that bow tie? That bow tie is … what is that? Who wants to wear that bow tie? Why are you wearing the bow tie? You're in a bar." And he says, "This bow tie is 9/11 Memorial bow tie." You could hear a pin drop in that bar just by the sheer. It was like an energetic blast throughout the bar. And all of a sudden everybody's sobered up. Now, that's the power that the bow tie essentially was able to or still is able to sort of conjure, if you will. So that's what BowTie Cause is all about. And so we've done a lot of bow ties, and Brent has been a big supporter of it.

Patrick: [00:22:41] So there's two themes I'm picking up so far that I really, really like. The first is when you said something like, where most people don't want to go, I go. And the second is this idea of storytelling, I guess, storytelling through a bow tie, storytelling in general. You mentioned two creative agencies. I literally don't know what that means. So tell us what a creative agency is and does, and why twice that's been something that's interested you?

Dhani: [00:23:07] So storytelling is imperative. That's how the world has been built. That's how, whether you're in … it doesn't matter the industry you're in, you have to tell some type of story in order to get a job. You have to tell some type of story in order for somebody to give you money. You have to tell some type of story for you to start some sort of company. It's how we all kind of fall into this stream of consciousness or this sort of social narrative. It's an ever-present sort of script that's essentially going. As we kind of write history, we kind of fall into the line somewhere. We might be a new paragraph or we might be a part of the paragraph above or we might be part of the next chapter. We're all sort of these books.

So the first agency, I started with a good friend of mine, Luke Raymond from the University of Michigan. And we started VMG Creative. And he had incredible talent, had incredible relationships, and we decided to sort of partner together. And VMG continued to grow. I was in Cincinnati, Ohio. And when I moved to Cinci from Philadelphia, when we started it, I was like, there's a different narrative that goes alongside with what's happening at BowTie Cause, right. There's a certain proclamation that people are exhibiting when they rock bow ties. And instead of just sort of focusing as VMG did on the digital side and building sites and building products for people and launching products, we wanted to sort of get into sort of a different niche where it was that cause that a company might have had that they may not have had the opportunity to express. In other words, what is the reason for your company's existence versus what are the products that you're selling for your company?

Patrick: [00:25:00] The why instead of the what.

Dhani: [00:25:02] It's a big difference. There's a big difference. And so that's what PROCLAMATION became. And I started that with a guy named Jeff Warman, and we grew that business. And then we got bought by Empower Media House, Jim Price. And Empower Media, we won agency of the year in 2000. We just won agency of the year. So it was a big celebration. And PROCLAMATION became a part of that because you're starting to see the merge of all these different industries, especially in the creative space where you need to understand sort of the creative narrative that transfers in both the social media space and the traditional space and in the planning space, because it depends upon who you want to reach is determined by who you've been talking to. And so PROCLAMATION became a great part of Empower Media.

And so those are the two agencies. And then VMG is now grown. I mean, we're down here in New York City. So we have, I can't remember how many people we have employed, about 15 people. And that agency has continued to grow and I'm still participating in that. So that's the nature of the creative world, but I think storytelling at the core of it all is the most important. And I love stories. Who doesn't love stories?

Patrick: [00:26:19] Nobody. And a good story I think like you said is always about the why not the what. And I see that that's a huge struggle right now in the entire finance industry, right, which is a huge mature industry. It's very hard to tell a compelling story for a why. And maybe given that there's so many people out there involved in finance, investing, etc., that's a good question to ask yourself because you can build a brand, maybe even a movement around that really simple question. Next thing I'm really interested in is some of the TV stuff that you've done, specifically starting with travel. I love to travel. It seems like you really love to travel. Talk about how that-

Dhani: [00:26:58] What's your equation for traveling?

Patrick: [00:26:59] My equation is traveling. Now, it's that we talked about beforehand, with two kids my equation, is try to keep it to less than once a month. It makes everyone happy.

Dhani: [00:27:07] Road trips?

Patrick: [00:27:08] Road trips.

Dhani: [00:27:09] Flights.

Patrick: [00:27:10] Everything.

Dhani: [00:27:10] Boats, motor and sail, hikes, camping.

Patrick: [00:27:16] Everything, do it all.

Dhani: [00:27:17] What's your favorite?

Patrick: [00:27:18] Hiking, being in the woods.

Dhani: [00:27:19] Have you seen Captain Fantastic?

Patrick: [00:27:22] Yes.

Dhani: [00:27:22] Great movie, right?

Patrick: [00:27:23] Yeah. That's like my spirit movie.

Dhani: [00:27:24] That's a great movie.

Patrick: [00:27:26] If I could make that happen, I would.

Dhani: [00:27:28] Right. But I think when you think about not only travel, but kind of going back to the question of why, I think if you watch that movie, it kind of grounds you in the why, because here's, I don't want to give away the movie, but here's a guy that lives out in the woods with his family, and all of a sudden they have to make a decision. And then they're quickly faced with this reality that a lot of people think that they have a lot, but they don't really have anything at all. A lot of people think they know a lot, but they don't really know anything at all. And it just sort of rolls in the question, how much time are you really spending around your own sort of creative motives and understanding of what's happening within whatever world of what you live and where you're really going? So it makes you focus on your own personal why, which would therefore translate into your business why.

Patrick: [00:28:21] I love that. What's your favorite movie? It seems like you love movies.

Dhani: [00:28:24] I love movies. I love Shawshank Redemption. That's one of my favorite and the quote, not all, let's see, not all birds are meant to be contained. Their wings are just too bright. I think that was one of the great lines. That scene at the very end when he had to crawl through that sewage line, I mean, that's every person's journey. Every person's journey, in some point in their life, they feel like they're locked up. And then all of a sudden they got to go through a bunch of stuff in order to kind of come out on the other side. Now, they may not all go down to Zihuatanejo, which I just found it as a real place.

Patrick: [00:28:59] Really?

Dhani: [00:28:59] Did you know that?

Patrick: [00:28:59] No.

Dhani: [00:29:00] Zihuatanejo is a real place. Now, Andy Dufresne may not be down there. He may not be working on his boat, but Zihuatanejo is a real place.

Patrick: [00:29:08] Got to go.

Dhani: [00:29:09] Got to go to Zihuatanejo. So Shawshank Redemption is one of my favorite movies. As Good As It Gets, Jack Nicholson is one of my favorite movies.

Patrick: [00:29:17] I like that one.

Dhani: [00:29:18] He walks into the psychiatrist's office and he's like, "I don't know if this is good as it gets." I remember that. And for him at that moment, it was. And then his eyes opened up to real life. He had always kind of put himself in his own personal prison, and then someone just foisted their way in, locked the door and knocked him down and stood them up and knocked him down again. And then all of a sudden, he just kind of realized that there was another parts of life. And so sometimes you got to get over some of those things that holds you back. And so I love that movie for that. And then my other favorite movie is uh Boomerang.

Patrick: [00:29:59] I don't even know that movie.

Dhani: [00:30:00] Boomerang, Eddie Murphy, if you don't know what it is, just go watch it. Eddie Murphy in his heyday, Halle Berry. And it was Marcus Graham. He was this a creative agency mogul, if you will. And for a lot of African-American men who were in the creative industry, a lot of people look up to Marcus Graham, because he was the first guy that was essentially on TV in this movie, running a huge agency. And so I watched that movie probably like 25 times, maybe more. I used to know that movie back and forth. So those are some movies, but going on to travel, movies allow you to travel, but life is better to kind of get out and see different things.

And my first show was Dhani Tackles the Globe, well, one of my first big shows, right. The show where I had to carry it myself. How about that? And Pat Young, who is at the time, the general manager of the travel channel, which was a part of discovery networks, we connected. And it was really through the relationship that I had with Redline Films in which I did a show called Timeless on ESPN2. I was the first player that had his owned TV show while I was playing, first player. I mean, at least I want to say that. You just check it out. So Redline Films, and they said, "We have an idea. What do you think about this idea?" I'm like, "What do you think about this idea?" And they're like, "Oh, that's a great idea. Let's work on this idea."

So we did the idea and it was, "Let's go to the Travel Channel. Let's allow you to travel around the world. Let's play different sports. Let's allow that to forge an interest into the culture and the food and the community and find sort of this new angle." And that was what Dhani Tackles the Globe was. And so Pat Young was like, "Yeah, you can do it." And the first episode or your pilot is going to be you going to England where I'm from, Pat was from England. He is from England. You're going to go play rugby. And I'm like, "Oh, scratch the record. You want me to go to England? And you want me to play rugby?" Now, mind you, everybody's going to say to yourself, "Weren't you playing football when you were doing this?" It's like, "Yeah, I was playing football."

And I was actually in the middle of contracts. Right. I had just got released from Philadelphia Eagles because we didn't see eye to eye. Then I had just gotten picked up by the New Orleans Saints. So I was just trying to get a job. And public perception was, I didn't focus enough on football. So they want me to go travel to play rugby in the UK. So I was like, "Man, why not?" I told you before, I was like, I'm going to go where most people aren't going to go. And I was nervous, but I didn't … I was actually, I was so nervous that I didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell my parents. I definitely didn't tell my agent. I don't think anybody really knew that I was going overseas to London. I mean, of course Redline Films did, and took off, went over there. It was a pilot. It was great. It was tough.

A couple of times I thought I was going to die. I was like, man, I'm going to hurt myself. Something's going to happen over here because rugby, no pads, full contact. I'm this guy that's coming over to England. And the premises I'm playing these professional sports. I'm playing at the highest level. This is not like club sports. These are real teams, real players that are making real money. And they're just throwing me to the wolves. Right.

I remember bloody Tuesday, we were out there during practice, and I just almost broke my nose and almost broke my eye socket. And I'm like, "Damn, what am I doing?" And I got fed off. Then I was like, "I love this." And then when I knew that I was supposed to do this show is, we went on a fox drag, because they don't do fox hunts anymore in England. And I had a horse named Harry. And to kind of cut the story down, we had to jump over fences. And so you know what happened on the second and third fence. Well, the second fence was a little bit tumultuous. The third fence, well, we can just say that Harry didn't keep me on his back.

Patrick: [00:34:16] Didn't make it.

Dhani: [00:34:16] I didn't make it. And I remember falling off of the horse and heading towards this rock. And everybody knows when you kind of get into an accident or something unfortunate happens, everything slows down. And I saw this rock coming at me, and I'm like, "Wow, this is not going to end well." This rock is going to crush my face or break my shoulder. I'm just thinking about all the unfortunate accidents that have happened to people that have fallen off horses. And then the horse is going to rear up like an Arabian stallion, its going to come down on my head, it's going to crush my face to the rock. That's what I was thinking all in the midst of maybe like two seconds. So what actually happened? I missed the rock. I was completely unscathed, and the horse grazed my leg and there was no bruise. When I got up and I said, I'm okay, I knew that I was supposed to do this show.

And I got back into town. I didn't tell anybody where I was. The problem is Travel Channel does this thing called Upfronts. And so they obviously want to tell everybody about the show. And so media kind of comes into it. And then all of a sudden pictures started coming out and the video started coming out and then my phone starts ringing, and I'm saying to myself, "Don't answer it. Nobody saw anything. You didn't see anything, right." And my coach called me a couple of times and I looked at the phone. I was like, "I'm not going to answer it." He called me back. I'm not going to answer it. He called me again. And I'm like, "I better answer it." And he picked up the phone and he said, "So how was it?" And I'm sitting on the other side of the line, quiet. Next words were, "I want to live vicariously through you."

Patrick: [00:36:05] Huh! That's awesome. Unexpected.

Dhani: [00:36:10] Let me tell you something 2007, a coach to say they want to live vicariously through you, doing something that you're not necessarily supposed to do. At least your contract says, if something happens to you, you're going to lose your money or not be able to play. I mean, and the best part about it when the show actually started running, Mike Brown said to me in the food line when we were at practice one day, "My wife makes me watch your show every Monday night." So I got the head coach, I got the owner of the team supporting me. That's when I knew that I was doing the right show. And that's when I knew Cincinnati was going to be an important part of my life.

Thoughts on Risk, Sports, and Travel

Patrick: [00:36:54] Do you think about risk? When you're making these decisions, is there any calculation or is it just, this seems right, gut-based decision making? It seems like you take what other people would perceive as a lot of risks, but I'm also getting a sense that you don't think about it that way at all.

Dhani: [00:37:11] I think about risk. I think it's all relative. I think that what is life with no risk? That's pretty banal. What is life with too much risk? That's just too extreme. I suppose there's something moderate, but that's just status quo. And then there's sort of this risk fluctuation that occurs throughout life. And I mentioned it in the very beginning, this sort of breeze of opportunity. It doesn't come very often. I remember there was a movie I saw way back when talking about the Northern winds. I don't remember what the movie was called, but the Northern wind suggest change, is that I almost think of that breeze of opportunity as the Northern winds. When they come very sporadically, you have to be open and sensitive enough to receive it.

And then you have to be bold enough to go towards it. And then you have to take a chance and jump. And I think that that's how I've essentially sort of evaluated risk. True gut, I agree. Common sense, but then there's sort of this synchronistic moment when you just feel it, but it's different than gut and it's different than evaluation. It's synchronicity. It's something where the cars and everything else are aligned and you're able to see it. I think that's different than gut. I feel something versus I see something. And if you can align all those up with the right time, then hopefully things will work out.

Patrick: [00:38:58] How many other sports did you do?

Dhani: [00:39:00] 20 different sports.

Patrick: [00:39:01] 20.

Dhani: [00:39:02] 20 different sports. So everything from Sambo, which was in Russia, to pradal serey, which was in Cambodia, to Muay Thai which was in Thailand. I climbed a base camp in Nepal going up towards Everest. I played soccer or football down in South Africa. I mean, I played a lot of different sports. I mean, I was on the road. Why do you think I have so many sky miles? I mean, Ed Bastian loves me right now. I'm all over the place.

Patrick: [00:39:29] What sport were you the best at of the 20?

Dhani: [00:39:33] I don't know which one I was the best at. I know which one I loved the most. I love sailing. I love sailing.

Patrick: [00:39:39] There was that?

Dhani: [00:39:40] Oh, that was actually in New Zealand.

Patrick: [00:39:42] Oh, unbelievable place.

Dhani: [00:39:43] That was one of the best experiences ever. And I didn't have to really do that much. I was the 18th man in the Louis Vuitton Cup during the America's Cup, right, which was actually a precursor to the America's Cup and some down there in New Zealand. And I just love it. I just fell in love with sailboats. I think it's a great place. Well, number one, it's a great place to sort of clear your mind if you're doing a relaxing sale. And I think that the team effort that is on the ship while you're competing.

And now I do, sometimes I'm out in South of France at the Saint Tropez. And I fly out there with about 20 of my friends. And my friend rents his boat, and then he brings all his friends and we do this sailing trip, and we do this competition. And I think that you kind of look around on the sailboat and it's the same type of thing when you look around on the field. And I'll be at … everybody is essentially contained. And then you have this other person that's sort of in the shark tank, when you kind of going back and forth, finding to , get across the line to kick things off. And it's similar to football.

And I think that it's just beautiful. So I love doing that. I still do a lot of Muay Thai. I think it's a great opportunity to cross train. And a lot of people may say, okay, well you did this sport while you're playing football. And if they go back and look at my stats, my stats were actually higher. My last four years in the league playing for the Bengals, and at the same time I was doing this show where I was playing sports around the globe.

And oh, by the way, when I would get back from going out of town to film this, I was out of town for like five weeks, maybe six weeks, month and a half. I would get back the night before training camp. Friday night, training camp, I had to be there Saturday. Practice Saturday afternoon, Sunday on throughout the season. And I never missed a game. And I had the highest statistics or I had the best statistics I have ever had in my career. So when I think about travel and I think about sort of the support of the team, and I think about my experience on Tackles the Globe, and what that was able to sort of to … the net value from that, it was the right show. It was the right moment. It was the right team. And I became a better person. And I also became a better player.

Patrick: [00:41:54] I always love that. I think it was Mark Twain or somebody famous like that, who said that travel just destroys prejudice. That it's like the best way to just purge yourself of any shred of prejudice that you might harbor having spent your life in just one place. I think that's an incredibly powerful tool.

Dhani: [00:42:11] I think a lot of people get really comfortable with where they live. A lot of people get really comfortable working with people that they've known for a long period of time. And everybody migrates towards one area or the next, because the fact is it's the industry that they're a part of. And it's very relevant. In the finance industry it's the same thing. You probably do business with 20 people that you've known for the last like 15, maybe 20 years, the same people. You're probably investing in ideas or people or businesses or markets where you know the people that are giving you great information. And then you're discerning, you're doing your own research through people that you've been able to sort of spend time with. And then you're making the same market adjustments and you're making the same choices that your contemporaries are doing. Your colleagues are doing the same type of thing.

Patrick: [00:43:03] You fall into a pattern.

Dhani: [00:43:04] You fall into a pattern. You all live in the same building. You all do the same thing. You all drive the same car. You go to the same club. You hit the same clubs. You try to hit the ball on the same spot, but it doesn't ever happen because I know all of you want to be Jordan Spieth, but that doesn't happen. Rory McIlroy, actually people think … I think they aspire to be like Phil Mickelson, even though the most people are in the world are not left-handed so get over yourself, but it's all the same. And when I think about work and I think about investing, I don't think about what other people are thinking about because I want to be where most people are not. Now, problem is if you're early and you're right, you're still wrong.

Patrick: [00:43:42] What do you mean?

Dhani: [00:43:43] Well, just think of yourself. If you were to come up with an idea that was so groundbreaking, that most people would not believe you. We talked about before in terms of most people want to be the first, but when they're asked to be the first, they don't want to do it.

Patrick: [00:43:58] They don't want to risk.

Dhani: [00:43:59] They don't want to risk. So when you're early and you're right, you're still wrong. Sort of that's a hard area to serve-operating because there's a lot of challenges and there's a lot of … I don't think there's a lot of risk because I already see it. A lot of people think there's a lot of risks because they don't see it. They see the haberdashery. And I'm looking at it as clear as can be. And so through my NFL career and through my television career and now into my investing career, which is a culmination of all of that, I've been able to sort of develop a rapport and relationship with a lot of amazing people in the investing world that have given me advice that now are part of my community.

Investment Strategy

Patrick: [00:44:42] So let's talk in this last piece about AdVenture Capitalists investing Key Capital, how this other phase of your life or other part of your life has been interesting. How do you think about approaching things as potential investments? Maybe starting on the show, describe what the show is, but then also with Key Capital.

Dhani: [00:45:03] So after I sold one of my companies, I actually had to reevaluate and part of the motivation for selling it was because one of the things you need to be able to do is listen to what people are saying. Listening is sometimes good, but hearing is that much better. And when I started listening to what people were saying, I realized that that haberdashery was actually holding me back. And so I needed to clean up my store. And that's when I started Key Capital. And I called one of my good friends, a guy named Abel Vroom. He went to the University of Michigan, Northwestern business school, worked at Credit Suisse, Goldman Sachs. And we started to sort of strategize what we're really trying to accomplish.

And we wanted to start Key Capital and go out there and raise a bunch of money. And then we kind of looked around and looked at each other and we're like, "Man, I don't know if we have a full on track record where people want to get behind that." So we're like, "Okay, how do we do this?" We started looking at great models and note. I know everybody looks at Buffet, and I look at Brent. Also, I look at Julian Robertson. I started looking at old school guys that have done an amazing job in heavily diversified industry, a guy named Roger Ehrenberg, another guy named Jason Mendelson. Now, that's more in the venture space. I just started tapping into sort of my Michigan network and I'm sure I left a bunch of people out, a guy named Martin Franklin. There's so many people out there that have come from the Michigan world and other people that I've met through the Michigan network that just kind of provided me this insights and Summit. I mean, I talked to so many people that are in the investing world from Summit.

And so Abel and I got together and we said, okay, look, we want to be like a VCP. We want to focus on things that are in the services side. We say sales and service. I like saying sales service and also space. And then we also looked at technology and engineering manufacturing, things of that nature, because I think that within the industry now there's a lot of legacy businesses that are out there that there's great opportunities around it. So that was one of the things that we looked at. And then we also knew that there was a lot of technology that was up and coming that could meet at a great intersection with some of those legacy businesses.

So we kind of sat in that area and we started doing some brainstorming. So we started investing in a bunch of companies, and then also owning a couple of different companies as well, because one of the other pieces that we like to look at, and I think one of the untapped areas is around strategic value add. There's a lot of clutter within the marketplace right now. And everybody's just trying to get ahead. And I think that one of the things that people overlook is the power of the woman-owned business. People overlook the minority-owned business. I think people overlook veteran and veteran-disabled owned businesses, because there are a lot of things that are out there in the market that support the thought process that we want more companies like that. We want more heavily diversified businesses.

Now, the unfortunate thing is there's still some skepticism around those businesses in terms of how scalable they truly are. The skepticism in terms of the scalability is only because people haven't done sort of their research in terms of how they can truly get to be that large.

Patrick: [00:48:30] Could you give an example?

Dhani: [00:48:32] So a lot of people think that a minority-owned business or a woman-owned business or a veteran and veteran-disabled own business, a lot of people look at those businesses … I can't give you exact example, but I could say this. A lot of people think, in the investing, don't think that they can contribute or invest enough in that business in order for it to get … and at the same time, be able to remain a woman or minority-owned business. So it's more of how much money can I really put into this company, and how much can it really remain a minority-owned company or a woman-owned business or veteran and veteran-disabled own company? Is it really going to sort of make sense in the market?

Now, if you kind of comb through a lot of the businesses that are out there, people have made strategic investments in businesses that have been extremely successful, albeit it's a very limited group. And so we like to look at those opportunities where there's an unoccupied space. So if you think about it from aerospace side, or I talked about the service space side, if you think about from the engineering and manufacturing side, I think there's a lot of different opportunities that people can start to see within that market where before … and I can kind of go back and talk a lot about minority owned businesses because there's a lot of bad press around that. People started thinking about them as more of like pass-throughs.

And back in the 70s when they came out, people were just trying to get government contracts. So they would just have somebody that was in the office. And they weren't really scared. It was just one person that was essentially collecting a check, and it's unfortunate. And I think now when we think about the diversified landscape that needs to occur within the business sector, whether it be technology or traditional business, people want to see more of those. They just have to get their mind out of the thought process that they can't truly scale. They're not just one person, they're 300 people. The company, Empower of which we sold PROCLAMATION to, that's a woman owned business, its 300 people. It's 75% female, and they're agency of the year. So there's market credibility out there that suggests that it will work and it can work. And I think it's a truly untapped opportunity that a lot of people are not going after.

Patrick: [00:50:52] This is a huge problem in finance specifically. And it's one that I've started to think quite a bit about. And I'm curious if there are things that you think people involved in the business broadly speaking can do to facilitate this transition or help this transition. I've struggled with myself. For example, I've had very few women on the podcast. Some of that is just demographics. There's just a lot more men in finance. A lot of it has been that they say no. So my hit rate is really bad. Right?

Dhani: [00:51:23] I can help you with that.

Patrick: [00:51:24] I'm sure you can.

Dhani: [00:51:24] I know a couple of people I can introduce you to.

Patrick: [00:51:27] But that's happened a lot.

Dhani: [00:51:28] Courtney McBain, she's one of the best investors, you can talk to her. You can talk to Trina Van Pelt, she's over at Intel Capital. She's one of the best investors. I mean, there's a lot of people out there. I don't know why they say no.

Patrick: [00:51:41] Of course there are.

Dhani: [00:51:43] I'm just going to send them your phone number, and I'm going to tell them, they need to say yes.

Patrick: [00:51:46] Please, because this happens a lot. Right? Of course there are a ton. And often we'll get it set up and then it'll get canceled or something. It's a very bizarre thing. And it's a pervasive problem in our business. So back to the question, which is, given that you've probably thought about it more than me, what can we do? Is it a mindset problem? Where's the root of this? It feels like a lot of band-aids and not a lot of root-cause analysis.

Dhani: [00:52:08] Number one, I think any good investors really just analyze the market, do a market analysis, really see if what I'm saying is true. Women-owned businesses, minority-owned companies, veteran and veteran disabled is a huge market opportunity, huge market opportunity. I mean, I'm talking about like billions and billions, trillions of dollars, if not, right, because all these companies want to be able to do it. And I think the first thing that you can do is talk to your business leaders that own companies and ask them about their initiatives.

So I think it's always important that peers at the same level talk and ask really tough questions and not be skeptical and not operate in skepticism, but really get to the crux of the issue and say, what are some of the initiatives and what are some of the businesses that you wish or you want or that you seen in the women-owned space or the veteran and veteran-disabled or the minority-owned space that your company really wants to work on? Or how are your initiatives really pushed forward? Is there something that is wrapped into your business that you want more companies?

I think it is the mindset as well as the intent. And I think the most important thing is the intent. Do you want more diversified businesses that work with your companies? And do you want a more diversified company? And sometimes it's just making the choice yourself and everybody listen that's out there, I want to do this. I'd like to do this. Talk to your wife. I think that's maybe the … forget talking to the companies, talk to your wife and see what she says, because your wife or your partner or your girlfriend, your friends, they'll give you some true insights, but that pillow talk is serious.

Patrick: [00:53:56] Last question I always ask everybody is for the kindest thing that anyone's done for you.

Dhani: [00:54:01] Oh, kindest thing. That's a tough question. A lot of people have been very, very kind to me. I think that Lloyd Carr was very kind to me when he gave me a scholarship to the University of Michigan. He was very kind. Now, his kindness was reflected in my mother's sternness, Nancy Jones, of saying, "I know you don't necessarily want to give my son a scholarship, but he's got a little chip on his shoulder. And if he goes to the University of Washington, he's going to beat you guys in the Rose Bowl. So I think you maybe want to reevaluate that." So coach Carr was very kind in giving me a scholarship. And it's kind of coincidental and synchronistic at the same time, we won the national championship against Washington State. So it may not have been the same university, but they're right around the corner from each other. And so I don't know if that's when I first started really believing in moments that are supposed to happen, but that definitely was one of them all.

Patrick: [00:55:06] Well, I hope we can do this every six months because there's like 100 questions.

Dhani: [00:55:10] I know I got more to talk about. This is crazy.

Patrick: [00:55:12] I know you got to run.

Dhani: [00:55:13] I think that there's so many topics of discussion. There's so many interesting things that are happening with the marketplace. And I think that at the crux of it, it's all about curiosity. It's all about not being afraid to ask the difficult question about what's out there, and it's all about, yes, it's true, it's about mitigating risk, but it's really about getting up out of your neighborhood and going into a different one and going to ask somebody a different question. You talked about Mark Twain and traveling reduces prejudice. Traveling allows you to see things from a different perspective. There's a reason why some people up and leave and go and they come back changed. It's because they saw something different. They ate some different food. They talked to somebody. They sat in a different room than most people traditionally do. And they took a deep breath, and it was so fresh that they became enlightened.

And sometimes we work ourselves so much into the dark that we need to kind of step out for a little bit. And my transition has been accompanied by moments of brightness, including this one. So I appreciate it, but also moments that have essentially changed my life. And I just encourage everybody to kind of just walk outside and meet somebody that's new. Talk to someone that they've never met before, travel somewhere that they've never been, and just take a chance on some other things. Recognize that breeze of opportunity. It can come from anywhere.

Patrick: [00:56:50] Curiosity pays a high return.

Dhani: [00:56:52] A very, very high return.

Patrick: [00:56:53] Well, thanks, man. This has been a blast. We're going to do it again.

Dhani: [00:56:56] I appreciate that. Thank you.

Created by @jrod109